Jump to content
WeekendMiniaturist

Guild School Seminar Requests

Recommended Posts

WeekendMiniaturist

I received the Seminar Descriptions today in the mail.  As always I want to attend more seminars then nights available....Great job to our instructors offering great seminars for 2016.

I like the panel format - and would like to have Guild Artisans, Fellows and Instructors consider a panel on sharpening various kinds of tools.  Based upon the class descriptions that I have read in the past, I know the some instructors use micro lathe tools, some instructors prefer gravers... in the metals world we would use a tool post for those initial cuts.

My suggestions for a tool program would answer questions about:

Standard woodworking (Micro) Lathe tools

Tools for use in a lathe's tool post.

Tools used for carving by hand.  (It is my understanding that the angle is different then Standard lathe tools used for turning.)

It would be great to hear the pros and cons of different tools from a panel, and more specifically why the instructor favors the tool of choice, and then which tool to use for roughing, vs fine tuning your object of affection.  (I know it seems obvious, but it is a standard course of thought and I can easily miss a standard practice.)

It would be great to feel what a really sharp lathe tool feels like....

And then instructions on how to get that same edge.

How SHARP is SHARP?  How do I get to the absence of an edge?

Tamra

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WeekendMiniaturist

P.S.  I want to accomplish a fine edge that lasts on High Speed Steel without spending $500 on a piece of equipment...I can't convince myself that there is a practical use for a wet bench grinder for a flat surface for a cutting tool that hasn't been abused. 

My first guess would be to use the wet bench grinder for graver & tool blanks to make my own profiles.

Tamra

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerry Kieffer
On April 2, 2016 at 7:58 PM, WeekendMiniaturist said:

I received the Seminar Descriptions today in the mail.  As always I want to attend more seminars then nights available....Great job to our instructors offering great seminars for 2016.

I like the panel format - and would like to have Guild Artisans, Fellows and Instructors consider a panel on sharpening various kinds of tools.  Based upon the class descriptions that I have read in the past, I know the some instructors use micro lathe tools, some instructors prefer gravers... in the metals world we would use a tool post for those initial cuts.

My suggestions for a tool program would answer questions about:

Standard woodworking (Micro) Lathe tools

Tools for use in a lathe's tool post.

Tools used for carving by hand.  (It is my understanding that the angle is different then Standard lathe tools used for turning.)

It would be great to hear the pros and cons of different tools from a panel, and more specifically why the instructor favors the tool of choice, and then which tool to use for roughing, vs fine tuning your object of affection.  (I know it seems obvious, but it is a standard course of thought and I can easily miss a standard practice.)

It would be great to feel what a really sharp lathe tool feels like....

And then instructions on how to get that same edge.

How SHARP is SHARP?  How do I get to the absence of an edge?

Tamra

 

 

 

Tamra

    While I am not active in the IGMA, I do occasional scan the site and your Lathe questions caught my eye. They are certainly valid questions especially for beginners.    Personally, my main interest`s are Micro machining, Model engineering and Horology.   A few times a year, I do classes on micro machining for both hobbyist and industry.    Many years ago, I did classes using a Graver for Horological purposes, but now I use a small machine Lathe mostly Sherline in the machine tool mode. (Tool Post)    While there is certainly nothing wrong with graver use, I personally find this mode to be far more versatile with greater capabilities.     The students that I teach, are generally quite intense expecting immediate results  and occasionally results may effect their livelihood. 

With that in mind, I take a quite different approach requiring no grinding of tools per your concern.    Tool grinding is a developed skill requiring expensive equipment and a lot of practice for the best results.     Students have enough to worry about when attempting to master a lathe without tool grinding distractions.    In fact I not only discourage tool grinding, I also discourage the use of HSS tooling until the Lathe is mastered to the degree desired. The issue with grinding HSS, is that once ground assuming properly, you now continually develope skills until in a short time the tool needs to be reground.     At this point, the grind will seldom be identical to the last grind and part of what you learned previously, will need to be remastered because of the different cutting characteristics.

To avoid this issue, I suggest starting out with a AR-4, AL-4 and a E-4   USA made brazed carbide lathe tools .  I use these tools to machine everything from Lead to the hardest metal normally machined.   ( About $6.00 each)   They come sharpened from the factory ready to use.     The three tools have 9 cutting edges allowing a very wide range of cutting applications.     In fact these three tools are all that is required to perform the lathe work required to build a watch movement from bar stock as an example of there versatility.  In use, they last roughly 100 hours depending on material machinability.        By having the ability to limit yourself to three tools that perform the majority of your work, you quickly develop a high level of efficiency and capability.    By also having your three tools always ground and shaped identical, further   increases skill development at a more rapid pace.

However, unless properly setup, nothing good will happen.   suggested setup is as follows.

(1) Place a piece of small steel stock in the lathe headstock. While rotating, file a very sharp pencil point.

(2) the cutting tip of the tool must be at or ever so slightly below the very sharp tip under magnification generally from the rear of the lathe for clear vision.   

Because the Sherline tool posts are so cheap, time is taken to properly set up in extra tool post`s and the tool is left in the post until replacement is required.

So, yes there are options not requiring a tool grinder.

The three tools discussed can also used to form shapes similar to Graver use with proper procedures in manual machine mode.    However for   efficiency and accuracy, All three axis on the lathe should leadscrew controlled and calibrated.

I have photo`s of the various items /procedures discussed but since this is my first post, they appear to be to large for the system.

Jerry Kieffer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerry Kieffer
On April 14, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Jerry Kieffer said:

Tamra

    While I am not active in the IGMA, I do occasional scan the site and your Lathe questions caught my eye. They are certainly valid questions especially for beginners.    Personally, my main interest`s are Micro machining, Model engineering and Horology.   A few times a year, I do classes on micro machining for both hobbyist and industry.    Many years ago, I did classes using a Graver for Horological purposes, but now I use a small machine Lathe mostly Sherline in the machine tool mode. (Tool Post)    While there is certainly nothing wrong with graver use, I personally find this mode to be far more versatile with greater capabilities.     The students that I teach, are generally quite intense expecting immediate results  and occasionally results may effect their livelihood. 

With that in mind, I take a quite different approach requiring no grinding of tools per your concern.    Tool grinding is a developed skill requiring expensive equipment and a lot of practice for the best results.     Students have enough to worry about when attempting to master a lathe without tool grinding distractions.    In fact I not only discourage tool grinding, I also discourage the use of HSS tooling until the Lathe is mastered to the degree desired. The issue with grinding HSS, is that once ground assuming properly, you now continually develope skills until in a short time the tool needs to be reground.     At this point, the grind will seldom be identical to the last grind and part of what you learned previously, will need to be remastered because of the different cutting characteristics.

To avoid this issue, I suggest starting out with a AR-4, AL-4 and a E-4   USA made brazed carbide lathe tools .  I use these tools to machine everything from Lead to the hardest metal normally machined.   ( About $6.00 each)   They come sharpened from the factory ready to use.     The three tools have 9 cutting edges allowing a very wide range of cutting applications.     In fact these three tools are all that is required to perform the lathe work required to build a watch movement from bar stock as an example of there versatility.  In use, they last roughly 100 hours depending on material machinability.        By having the ability to limit yourself to three tools that perform the majority of your work, you quickly develop a high level of efficiency and capability.    By also having your three tools always ground and shaped identical, further   increases skill development at a more rapid pace.

However, unless properly setup, nothing good will happen.   suggested setup is as follows.

(1) Place a piece of small steel stock in the lathe headstock. While rotating, file a very sharp pencil point.

(2) the cutting tip of the tool must be at or ever so slightly below the very sharp tip under magnification generally from the rear of the lathe for clear vision.   

Because the Sherline tool posts are so cheap, time is taken to properly set up in extra tool post`s and the tool is left in the post until replacement is required.

So, yes there are options not requiring a tool grinder.

The three tools discussed can also used to form shapes similar to Graver use with proper procedures in manual machine mode.    However for   efficiency and accuracy, All three axis on the lathe should leadscrew controlled and calibrated.

I have photo`s of the various items /procedures discussed but since this is my first post, they appear to be to large for the system.

Jerry Kieffer

Tamra

      Hopefully my photos intended for the last post will now post in order.

The first photo shows the AR4,  E4, and AL4 brazed carbide tools discussed for anyone not familiar with them.

The second photo shows the sharp point and tool for setup.

The third shows tool setup in relation to the sharp point.    When setup to this degree, turning diameters under .001" are quite easily possible.

The fourth shows a brass Finial that was machined manually with tool post and tool by a student on their first attempt. This was done after process explanation and demonstration in a large size to experience the procedure.    However, sizes only a tiny fraction of this size are not an issue with proper lathe setup.       In this particular class, we had some extra time and the metal was also aged.

With a quick scan of IGMA classes, I noticed that even though Lathes and Mills are used in projects, there were no classes dedicated to a the actual setup and use of the machines. Or at least none I seen       Dedicated classes of this type covering the designed use of the machines, would answer all of your questions, and those I am sure of others.          As such, I would suggest such classes.

However, in the mean time, if someone is really interested in such a class, they do exist.       A beginners Lathe and Beginners milling machine class are available from the National Association of Watch and clock Collectors.      http://www.nawcc.org      Click on Education, then workshops and then current schedule.    While horological oriented, all instruction is utilized in micro machining regardless of what it is.    Sherline equipment is supplied and used in these classes.     The beginners lathe class is WS-117 and the Beginners Mill class is WS-121.

Jerry Kieffer

DSCN7332.jpg

DSCN7329.JPG

DSCN7320.jpg

DSCN7336.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WeekendMiniaturist

Jerry, welcome to the Fine Miniatures Forum.  I perceive that many skills in the watchmakers / repair world are very applicable in our world of fine scale miniatures. 

Where does one obtain the brazed carbide tools that you are referring to?  In the past, I have looked at tools from Sherline & MSC.

I reviewed both of your classes and your bio, and I am sure that these classes would be quite valuable; but surely at some point in time, one must need to sharpen their tools... and more importantly create their own profiles for tools.  Eventually, I want to be able to hollow out the neck of a vase, so I'm going to have to be able to create my own profiles and curves to get inside of the piece to hollow it out.  By all standards I am at the beginning of my journey in turning - subsequently I am sure I would enjoy your class offerings.

It is a valid point that beginners should focus on the learning experience, but if I had learned to sharpen before I got to use the lathe;  I wouldn't be idle right now (after 80 hours on my lathe), and I'm back to that need to master a finely sharpened lathe tool.

As a participant in 48 hours of classroom instruction with Wm. R. Robertson last year at Guild School, I came home to apply the lessons and managed to get 80 of my 100 hour goal met last fall before my busy season at work began... so now that the weather has improved, and I was back in the shop continuing with the lathe, I am not happy with my current attempts to re-sharpen my delta micro lathe tools.

This particular student is thrilled with the instruction she received last year at Guild School, as I was able to setup my lathe to create Bill Hudson's oil can, which is similar to the brass piece that you posted in your photo that is pictured with a dime.  I snapped the tip, when it rolled off my kitchen counter, sorry no photo available until I do it again. Bill indicated it was a more advance project, but it is the first thing that I turned after returning home from Guild School last year. 

Tools that are not sharp, create messes... like chatter. I don't want chatter, it means more sanding, so my goal is to learn to sharpen my own tools!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WeekendMiniaturist

> However for efficiency and accuracy, All three axis on the lathe should leadscrew controlled and calibrated.

I will risk showing my inexperience, and am assuming we are discussing X,Y, and Z axis.  If yes, I need to learn more about this, too!

And... I was just discussing this topic with Chris (MeezerMama) at lunch last Thursday at the Chicago show.

 

Tamra

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerry Kieffer
18 hours ago, WeekendMiniaturist said:

Jerry, welcome to the Fine Miniatures Forum.  I perceive that many skills in the watchmakers / repair world are very applicable in our world of fine scale miniatures. 

Where does one obtain the brazed carbide tools that you are referring to?  In the past, I have looked at tools from Sherline & MSC.

I reviewed both of your classes and your bio, and I am sure that these classes would be quite valuable; but surely at some point in time, one must need to sharpen their tools... and more importantly create their own profiles for tools.  Eventually, I want to be able to hollow out the neck of a vase, so I'm going to have to be able to create my own profiles and curves to get inside of the piece to hollow it out.  By all standards I am at the beginning of my journey in turning - subsequently I am sure I would enjoy your class offerings.

It is a valid point that beginners should focus on the learning experience, but if I had learned to sharpen before I got to use the lathe;  I wouldn't be idle right now (after 80 hours on my lathe), and I'm back to that need to master a finely sharpened lathe tool.

As a participant in 48 hours of classroom instruction with Wm. R. Robertson last year at Guild School, I came home to apply the lessons and managed to get 80 of my 100 hour goal met last fall before my busy season at work began... so now that the weather has improved, and I was back in the shop continuing with the lathe, I am not happy with my current attempts to re-sharpen my delta micro lathe tools.

This particular student is thrilled with the instruction she received last year at Guild School, as I was able to setup my lathe to create Bill Hudson's oil can, which is similar to the brass piece that you posted in your photo that is pictured with a dime.  I snapped the tip, when it rolled off my kitchen counter, sorry no photo available until I do it again. Bill indicated it was a more advance project, but it is the first thing that I turned after returning home from Guild School last year. 

Tools that are not sharp, create messes... like chatter. I don't want chatter, it means more sanding, so my goal is to learn to sharpen my own tools!

 

Tamra

    My answer to your grinding question should have probably been more clearly stated.      If you are using a Graver, you will need to learn how to properly sharpen a Graver before use on a Lathe.   To this, there is no free lunch.     The quality of your sharpening equipment, will determine your ability to properly sharpen your Graver, that will determine the quality of your work.

However, the same work can be done on a Machine tool style Lathe such as a Sherline using tooling in a tool post as can be done with a Graver.     For these procedures, properly selected tooling that is pre-sharpened and inexpensive enough to be replaced when need be, would not require a tool grinder.    Of course, a tool grinder is nice to have, but to answer your specific question, it is not needed with proper tooling utilizing proper procedures.      Personally, I do grind some lathe tools, mostly carbide with diamond wheels on a Accu-finish series one tool grinder.   Where grinding is not critical I use a "Green Wheel" in a standard bench grinder for carbide.    For form tooling, I use a NSK pneumatic 300,000 RPM hand piece (first photo) mostly freehand because it is highly controllable.     Where a special precise form tool is required, carbon steel can be machined on a milling machine and hardened/tempered.  An example would be the gear cutter in the second photo and the gear it cut.     Brazed carbide tools are available from the sources that you mentioned or any machine tool supply house. Leadscrews on all lathe axis means Carriage, Cross slide and tailstock.     X-Y-Z applies to a milling machine.

I am happy to hear that you are happy with your classes.

The NAWCC courses mentioned are purposely setup not to include a project so that concerns similar/common to yours in your first post are thoroughly addressed.   While I have taught classes with projects, it is difficult to cover tool use and project construction and do both justice unless all have required tool experience. The classes are designed to expose the students to all forms of tooling, proper setup and the efficient utilization of machining processes that require the least amount of developed skill.  They are also setup to have the student perform a very wide range of procedures that can be performed on their first or second attempt.    They provide a structured path of subjects that build on each other allowing a student to master skill sets in a timely fashion.    Another words, when a student returns home and encounters a challenge , the goal is to have the students first thought be that "I can do that".

OD and ID machining required for your Vase example would normally be one of the first procedures covered in a basic lathe class.

Just another perspective for consideration.

Jerry Kieffer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DSCN7356.JPG

DSCN1667.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WeekendMiniaturist

Jerry, beautiful outcomes; however, I am back to a $350 minimum range for a sharpening tool for used equipment on eBay... ouch., and subsequently the reason for your recommendation to purchased pre-sharpened tool posts.  I see a circle.  :)  Unfortunately it would be really awkward to use tool posts with my jet mini lathe.  From my limited participation Guild School has been project based.  Skills and technique classes would be an interesting paradigm shift.  Perhaps you would consider joining the guild, submit your miniature work,

(I suggest 1/12th scale) and teach! 

>Leadscrews on all lathe axis means Carriage, Cross slide and tailstock

My non - engineering brain has so much to absorb and learn!

Have no fear, I was not turning brass on a variable speed wood lathe; I turned it on my little Unimat DB200.

Tamra

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerry Kieffer
23 hours ago, WeekendMiniaturist said:

Jerry, beautiful outcomes; however, I am back to a $350 minimum range for a sharpening tool for used equipment on eBay... ouch., and subsequently the reason for your recommendation to purchased pre-sharpened tool posts.  I see a circle.  :)  Unfortunately it would be really awkward to use tool posts with my jet mini lathe.  From my limited participation Guild School has been project based.  Skills and technique classes would be an interesting paradigm shift.  Perhaps you would consider joining the guild, submit your miniature work,

(I suggest 1/12th scale) and teach! 

>Leadscrews on all lathe axis means Carriage, Cross slide and tailstock

My non - engineering brain has so much to absorb and learn!

Have no fear, I was not turning brass on a variable speed wood lathe; I turned it on my little Unimat DB200.

Tamra

 

 

 

 

Tamra

       None of my projects would be suitable as a practical course project.     My current project is now at about ten years and ten thousand hours and I assure you, not a second less.

Good luck on your miniature adventures.

Jerry Kieffer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WeekendMiniaturist

If the tool posts Jerry posted are from American Carbide Tools, they are probably the same on Sherline's website...........  definitely not available at MSC, but available from,  Fastenal and DoAll Distributors... other distributors have Carbide brazed tools, but not from ACT.

However shipping is $8 to $9 for the 3 different tool posts and they do not even weigh 1lb.  Therefore, forum members it is important that you order with your other supplies..

I have always assumed that I could buy whatever I wanted from the tool supply houses and not pay shipping; I discovered yesterday, not an option with Fastenal; my other supplier required I purchase in qtys of 12... also not an option.  We have DoAll, Fastenal, Grainger & MSC distribution center within our two counties; and I hit the figurative brick wall yesterday.

New day, though I can try Grainger today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Peter Jensen

Tamra - Try McMaster - Carr.  They carry virtually everything you might need except specialized tools for jewelry work.  You can order online and receive almost always in 3 days or fewer.  They do charge shipping, but their breadth of products means that you can order several items to lower your per item cost.  Plus the convenience of ordering from home and receiving your order at your front door in a couple of days makes it worthwhile.  Even the $8 or $9 dollars is probably less than you would spend on gas to go pick up an item and certainly less if you figure in the value of your time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WeekendMiniaturist

Thank you Peter for another option--> McMaster Carr, I remember that Pete Boorum also mentioned this vendor to me too.  I will have to check it out - the whole subject of supplies list is quite challenging, as it seems no supply house has everything that I want to purchase.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jerry Kieffer
On April 22, 2016 at 8:34 AM, WeekendMiniaturist said:

If the tool posts Jerry posted are from American Carbide Tools, they are probably the same on Sherline's website...........  definitely not available at MSC, but available from,  Fastenal and DoAll Distributors... other distributors have Carbide brazed tools, but not from ACT.

However shipping is $8 to $9 for the 3 different tool posts and they do not even weigh 1lb.  Therefore, forum members it is important that you order with your other supplies..

I have always assumed that I could buy whatever I wanted from the tool supply houses and not pay shipping; I discovered yesterday, not an option with Fastenal; my other supplier required I purchase in qtys of 12... also not an option.  We have DoAll, Fastenal, Grainger & MSC distribution center within our two counties; and I hit the figurative brick wall yesterday.

New day, though I can try Grainger today.

Tamra

       It makes no difference where you purchase tools as long as the quality is sufficient for the job.       In this case, to perform as stated, the brazed carbide tools should be of no less quality than provided by USA manufacturers of this product .

Part numbers to order from MSC are as follows

AR4    # 72660160

E4       #72666167

AL4      #72661168

Jerry Kieffer

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MissyBoling

For sharpening gravers and carving tools, I use an India stone, an Arkansas stone, and a slip strop with polishing compound. I got the slip strop from Amazon. It makes a big difference in the final polishing of the tool edge. I examine the edge and face of the tool with my 10x jewelers loupe for burrs, shape, and a mirror sheen. It takes some practice, but it isn't hard to learn. If I can do it, you can, because I'm as far from being an expert as anyone could be. ? If you take a few swipes on the stone or slip stop every so often while working, you shouldn't ever have to do any heavy duty sharpening. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WeekendMiniaturist

Missy, I looked up slip-strop for sharpening, I will look at my HSS lathe tools with magnified eyes... although I do not think I have any of my stitching magnifiers have 10x power of magnification.  :)

Still learning...

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...